Am I really such a Bad Person?

[anghara]

I've been having an argument over on rasfc about the merits and the morality of wandering into your lcoal bookstore and, if you find your book shelved spine-out, turning it face-out for a potential buyer to see. As I pointed out somewhere in the thread, in my specific case it was my books shelved spine out next to a veritable avalanche of "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" series - all five books in the trilogy - most of them in two or three different editions, facing out. I felt no compunction about facing some of those (much thinner) books spine out and turning my own face out as occupying the same space that the original arrangement did. I have nothing against Douglas Adams - I met the man, ferchrissakes, and I like both him and his work - but as evidenced by the books in this one bookstore his books are available in many many places and in many many copies and incarnations, and this particular store had THREE COPIES of my own novel.

A particular character in rasfc tells me that I am an immoral cheat for doing that.




The >remarks are this other fellow. The rest of it is my response.

>I'm taking a more extreme case, but one closer in its nature than what
>you offered.
>
>A customer who takes a book off the shelf to look at it and puts it back
>in the wrong place isn't trying to change anything. He isn't trying to
>do anything the bookstore hasn't invited him to do. He is there trying
>to do what the store wants him to do and makes a mistake.
>
>An author who goes into a bookstore to face out his books is
>deliberately doing something he knows the store doesn't want him to
>do--that's why he doesn't tell the store people what he is there doing.
>The reason he is doing it is to promote his interest at the cost of
>theirs--and at the cost of the other authors who would be faced out if
>his book wasn't.

... in one store, in one small town in the continental US, and I am
perfectly sure someone else has done the same thing to my books in
some other store in some other town.

>The excuses offered for doing it so far are:
>
>1. The bookstore people really don't know how to run a bookstore, so
>changing things around doesn't make things any worse, so it really
>doesn't hurt anyone.

I have never said or even implied that, so I'll thank you for not
putting words into my mouth. Once again, I reiterate - I have removed
nothing from the place the store people have put it. It's still in the
same precise position. Only in a different orientation. And honestly -
under the circumstances I put forward elsethread - I don't see how it
DOES make things any worse.

>2. It does hurt the other authors, but they are richer than you are, so
>that's all right.

If I ever turn into Steven King I fully expect other authors to do
this kind of thing to MY books in stores. But by the time you get to
be a household name where every new book you write is bought on the
strength of the fact that YOU wrote it and not on the strength of a
decision of , oh, new guy, I'll try him - by that time (a) you have
more than one or even two books out there in the market; (b) they are
available in multiple copies in every store in the country. (c)
your'e receiving a substantial royalty check on your sales every six
months. The truth of the matter is that the best you as J.Newbie
Author can hope for in some cases is that someone will buyt YOUR book
*as well as* the new thing out by BIg Name. Or do you really think
that people who go into a store looking for the latest Harry Potter
will NOT buy the book they came there to get, at that time or later,
just because they happen to notice another unknown book beckoning from
the shelf? Books are not bread and they are not toilet paper, they are
not bought because you cannot live without them in a civlized manner
or indeed at all. Books by definition are disposable income. YOU
decide when, where, how and on whom your book budget is spent. It
isn't "all right" because anyone is "richer" than me, it's all right
because they have saturation presence in the market, their books are
widely available in multiple copies EVERYWHERE, and it's a dog eat dog
world out there. Publishing a novel is not the end of a long road,
it's just the beginning of another, even longer one - and if your
book, however brilliant, however well written, however much your
particular editor believed in it, is buried under twenty copies of
another title - which has been in print for twenty odd years and
whose sales are hardly likely to drop off overnight because you
published a book which shares a shelf with it - well, let's put it
this way, years ago the market might have been more forgiving and
would have let you have more time to establish your presence in the
market. These days you're given months, maybe weeks, before sales or
the lack of them determine what else is to be done with you and your
career. I am perfectly certain that staff often make the rounds of the
shelves and return things to the way they were before I turned my book
out - but if it's out for an hour or two it might be an hour or two in
which it catches someone's eye. Yes, dammit, at this point in my
career it's worth it.

>I have no idea whether or not you would be impressed by analogous
>excuses if someone else was treating you in a similar way--putting
>advertising signs on your house or lawn or car for his products, in the
>hope that it would be a while before you noticed, to take a closer
>analogy than my previous one--an analogy I already offered and you
>ignored. He too could argue that it didn't really hurt you and (given
>suitable circumstances) that you were richer than he was so if it did
>hurt you that was still all right.

You just don't get the difference at all, do you? The bookstore is
there to sell books. I am nudging the sale of MY book. I am in no way
plastering advertising material on anyone's house, lawn or car for any
"products" at all. People write books - MANY people write books - and
without those of us who do the bookstores would be out of business.
WHich business is to sell books, no? WELL, IF SOMEONE BUYS MINE OR
BUYS SOMEONE ELSE'S, THE BOOKSTORE HAS SOLD A BOOK. Business
accomplished.


So. Am I abominable? Do other authors really never do this? Am I alone out there? Am I utterly despicable?

Am I really going around "plastering signs on someone else's lawn"?...

Promotion budgets are notoriously low, unless you happen to be a really big name which publishers KNOW will pull in the moolah - or you happen to be really really lucky and hit the jacpot, for instance Susannah CLarke, who wasn't hurt by the fact that she happened to be endorsed by Neil Gaiman.I'm sure that book 1 of Harry Potter was surreptitiously turned face out a few times... until such time as that became unnecessary because you had a couple of hundred people waiting in line outside the bookstore at midnight in order to grab a copy before it even hit the shelf at all, spine-out of face-out. If you recognise the NAME on the spine, your reaction is, "oh, a new Rowling... a new Gaiman... a new King... a new Bujold... a new Nora ROberts... I better get it". Let's be honest, if you saw your own name on a book spine (and you didn't recognise it as being yours) how likely are you to pull the book out to look at it? WOuldn't you just skim right past it, looking for the next Name you found Familiar?...

So what's wrong with giving yourself a little help, while that Name is still not Familiar Enough, in the hope that by selling another copy or two you're giving yourself the chance to start a word-of-mouth thing happening, that perhaps someone else might return to the bookstore, where your books are back to having their spines facing out, and seeking you out BY NAME?

I fully realise that not all books can be shelved facing out. But I completely subscribe to the idea that it is the books by less-than-familiar names that SHOULD be faced out, because books are, indeed, judged by their covers and if it isn't the familiarity with the author that would make you choose to buy a particular book an interesting cover might. The really big household names simply don't need that particular crutch any more. They could put the front cover of a telephone directory on a new novel by Steven King *and it would still be bought anyway*, whether it faced out or not.

Okay, rant over.

Back to my chapter. By this time next year I'll have at least one other book I might be looking for, face out, on bookstore shelves.

Sigh.

Comments

[wild-patience.livejournal.com]

I don't see any problem with you doing that. I've done it myself to books which I thought were really good, and I'm not a writer. It's not as if you're hiding the books, as you said. I try to stay out of bookstores because I have this problem have already having bought too many books (without sufficient time to read them), but I think that books with the cover facing out have much more of an impact on the shopper than those where you can only see the spine.

[jimhines.livejournal.com]

When mine comes out, I not only intend to run around facing it out, I'm gonna ask friends and family to do the same. Last time I was in B&N, I moved a Terry Pratchett book so I could face Toby Buckell's out in its place. It's very common.

And yes, there's a slight chance that, in doing so, I cost Terry Pratchett a sale. But you know, somehow I haven't lost sleep over that.

[ramblin-phyl.livejournal.com]

I turn my books face out any time I can get away with it. My friends do it for me too.

We are not horrible people for trying to make a living. And I don't think we are taking sales away from MR. BIG NAME MAKING MEGAZILLIONS. People know those names and often check out the stacks just to see if there is a new book by them. If they chance upon us mid-list people in process then we are opening them to experiences and broadening their horizons.

[nycshelly.livejournal.com]

This is the sort of "debate" that makes my eyes cross and my head spin after a while on rasfc. ;)

For the record, I found your book, face out, in the new trade pb section when it was, uh, new. I'd been looking for it, so would have found it anyway. But I do love how Barnes & Noble put the new books in a new books section, cover front and center. It makes it easy to skim through and find something that intrigues me as much as what I specifically went looking for.

So imagine my annoyance the other day to discover the B&N a block from work is rearranging yet again and (for now) new trade pbs were all spine out! It takes me a long time to skim through during my lunch hour and I ended up leaving without really looking and empty-handed. I think in terms of the browsing public, cover out is a big deal for a book.

That said, I can understand and appreciate that bookstores would frown on authors or authors' friends and/or family going in and changing books from spine out to cover out. It undoes the work they've done and I could imagine a war of covers if someone comes along and pushes "your" book spine out so they could push "theirs" cover out!

I remember a "helpful" woman patron at my former library branch who reshelved books because she thought the author's name was misspelled. Different situation and she was just plain wrong whereas an author is just trying to drum up sales, but it still creates work and headaches for the staff. Yet I've read on many a message board, not just rasfc, of authors or family or friends of authors doing the cover out thing.

Is it right? I don't know, because I can't say that I wouldn't do it. But I would be a nervous wreck, hoping I wouldn't get caught. Heck, I'd just be thrilled to have a book published so I could face this particular dilemma. ;)

[j-cheney.livejournal.com]

I would say that, as long as you aren't physically harming anything, it's reasonable to do that. As a reader, like your first commenter, I've done it for authors I like. If the bookstore has a problem with it, they'll just rearrange it.

Also, you might chum up to one of the workers and see if they'll put you in the employee recommendation section...

[cicadabug.livejournal.com]

I had turned a certain rasfc pedant's book face-out when I was in B&N a few weeks ago; last night I put it back the way it was.

I felt bad doing neither of those things.

Had there been a copy of Jin-Shei there, I would have turned it instead, but alas there was not. Now that I've finally gotten around to reading it, I feel more comfortable using passive-anonymous recommendation methods (-:

Facing out

[medievalist.livejournal.com]

Heck, I do this for books, especially when it's book I know is good, or it's by my husband ;). But I routinely do this for books by Lee and Miller, Elizabeth Bear (why do book sellers at B and N often put Worldwired in Military fiction but not the rest of the Jenny Casey books?) or Stross, or Walton, or Dori Smith and Tom Negrino.

[cicadabug.livejournal.com]

Thinking further on this:

There used to be a local bookstore with a decent SF section and an employee who knew it inside-out. I could go in and have a conversation with said employee and he could recommend books to me based on what he knew of me and my reading habits, and as a result I found a bunch of authors that I'm now very very fond of (Bujold, frex) that I may not have found otherwise, or at least not as quickly.

With the advent of giant bookstores like B&N, more often than not there's no one there that has any actual knowledge about the genre. One could look at customers changing the position of books as a usurpation of the store's right to dictate how their wares are displayed, or you can look at it as an unorganized collective method of providing peer recommendations in the absence of proper insight from the store itself. Sort of like the Encyclopedia Brittanica versus Wikipedia -- sure, if you have access to both as a source of info on a topic, you're going to go for the EB. But without EB, Wikipedia is a reasonably good alternative, all arguments about its problems/pedigree aside.

I think I would feel more reluctant to face books in a tiny store. but not in a big chain store. OTOH, in a little store I might very well say to the owner/manager, "hey, this book is really good! you ought to give it more attention", which in B&N would just make me a nutcase.

[lizziebelle.livejournal.com]

I don't see anything at all wrong with doing that. And the next time I'm in a bookstore, I will do it *for* you. :)

Sounds like that dweeb was just looking for a fight.

[swan-tower.livejournal.com]

What puzzles me about these debates is that, when I worked at a Barnes and Noble, I never once received instructions about which authors I should face out. In fact, the only advice I got about it was that I should do whatever managed space best -- face out a book with a lot of copies, so it took up less room, or pick something with fewer copies to face out if a shelf was getting empty. So this notion that you're somehow messing up the employees' work, or that they're going to undo what you did because you're supposed to be spine-out, is odd to me. Do most stores have specific policies on who gets faced out, and mine was just an exception?

[orlacarey.livejournal.com]

You beat me to it. I've worked for both Walden Books and B Dalton. During that time I was NEVER told to face a specific book out. It was determined by how much space was on the shelf and how much space a book took up. I will still face out books when I go to book stores if I notice the shelf is too crowded, or change what book is faced out based on the space on the shelf.

You're missing the point still.

[seawasp]

The point is very simple:

It is not your decision to make. The bookstore worker who is in charge of that section may have requirements on his section you don't even know which may affect how and why books are faced out.

In purely economic terms, the bookstore is there not to "sell books" as an abstract concept. It is there to Make Money. As I stated previously, based on many years working in bookstores AS the bookstore worker whose section you would have been in, regularly facing out a book increases sales of that book by between 1.5 and 2 times. THIS APPLIES ACROSS VIRTUALLY ALL BOOKS, even very large sellers; about the only one I can recall that it DIDN'T apply to would be new-release Harry Potter, because that was on RESERVE at higher demand than it shipped.

Which means that FOR THE BOOKSTORE, a faceout of Stephen King, Dave Weber, Eric Flint, etc., is worth 10 or 20 books' worth of profit in the same timeframe that a faceout of Less Known Author is worth 1 or 2 books.

Sure, FOR YOU it's a really great deal. For Dave Weber, another 10 or 20 books sold isn't a major issue. But FOR THE BOOKSTORE it's a direct, clear impact on the bottom line.

Now you may not CARE about the bookstore's bottom line, but that is still a clear, objective negative effect that you could be having.

And once again, I note: If you introduce yourself and talk to the people in question, often you'll GET the effect you want anyway -- and have it maintained by the person in the section. The bookstores ARE interested in selling books in the abstract, to some extent, and if you put a *friendly* face to this book, the people will often be very happy to accomodate you.

Re: You're missing the point still.

[anghara.livejournal.com]

As far as points are concerned, I think you just made mine for me:

Which means that FOR THE BOOKSTORE, a faceout of Stephen King, Dave Weber, Eric Flint, etc., is worth 10 or 20 books' worth of profit in the same timeframe that a faceout of Less Known Author is worth 1 or 2 books.

Sure, FOR YOU it's a really great deal. For Dave Weber, another 10 or 20 books sold isn't a major issue. But FOR THE BOOKSTORE it's a direct, clear impact on the bottom line.

...My point being, that King, Weber, Flint et al. will have sold a certain number of books ANYWAY during a certain time period. My books, or books by any other midlist author you care to name, may not have done.

In other words, we're spreading the disposable income across the board, for ALL writers. People who sell books might be expected to be a little more understanding of this. I am relatively certain that the profit margin of a Barnes and Noble superstore puts the amount of my royalties to shame - and the final result still is that they have sold another book. Yes, it's kind of a big deal to me that it might be MY book. My point is that at this stage in my own writerly development the authors you mention above have no NEED to face out books which would get searched for, found, and purchased anyway. For the rest of us, it does matter.

It's a matter of profit margin vs. making a living.

Re: You're missing the point still.

[brownnicky.livejournal.com]

I haven't worked in bookshops but I've worked in other kinds of shops.

Customers screw everything up - all the clothes looked lovely on the right
rails, ordered neatly by size and then those bastards come in, throw stuff on the floor, put things back on the wrong hanger, leave stuff in the changing room - and when they buy stuff it leaves gaps. Bras are the worst.
have you any idea how long it takes to get them on a hanger? And
don't get me on the folded colour co ordinated sweater scenario. It takes
half an hour to get them beautiful - one customer comes and you have to start all over. It's outrageous! Ban customers I say. Dirty, messy things.

I don't think they should be allowed in.

[mmerriam.livejournal.com]

This a common practice. I've had other writers tell me they do it, and I've watched a couple of my writer buddies do it in stores. I do it for my wirter friends, when I can. When I do sell my novel and I see it on the self, I fully plan to turn it face-out.

[dendrophilous.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's abominable, but I don't think it's always a good thing to do, either.

Depends whether the bookstore cares which books are facing out.If the bookstore has a policy for which books face out (deal with the publisher, or arcane formula, or random order from the manager), then facing them out would annoy the workers.

I won't stop any stealth facer-outters if I ever get a book published, but I'll probably think at least twice before doing it myself. (I don't face-out books now.)

I don't stealth it...

[seawasp]

... and it puzzles me why anyone would. I walk into the store, tell them who I am, offer to sign, and ask if they would to see if they can make the book more visible (assuming it isn't already).

No sneaking, no imposing upon their prerogatives, no problem. I end up with friendly people remembering me and WANTING to help me.

I suppose it might be more difficult if it's "This book is by my sister's cousin's nephew's former roommate", but still, the direct approach is just the best way to do it.

[autumn-shroud.livejournal.com]

There's a huge difference between your work and Mr. Adams' work however: HE IS SUPER WELL KNOWN.

if anyone wants to buy a book on his stuff, they can find it easily. However if your book is next to it, it may get neglected by the fanatics of Mr. Adams.

I don't see why you shouldn't have done what you did, I would do the same. I am a browser of books when I enter a bookstore typically (that's how I found Secrets of Jin-Shei...or...yeah I have a brainfreeze). Your book was cover-facing-out and it drew my attention that way.

Sadly we are a society if 'first looks', and as a struggling writer you need to do what you can.

Turning them face out doesn't mean they'll be bought, just like if you were to plaster signs on someone else's lawn it doesn't mean the person who the signs are for will get votes. It just gets them attention.

The day you hold a knife to somone's back and force them to buy it is when you go too far!

[aenodia.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the idea, when I see your book in book stores I will turn it cover out. I already have my copy.

As for the morality of doing it yourself. I don't see the harm in it. You didn't remove it, the book shelves are still neat and tidy. More changes are made to book shelf stock in a day's time inadvertently than you did by turning your book cover out. People in general do not put things back where they found them in any store these days.

It's great that a local book store has your book in stock, I hope they are promoting you and your book occasionally. It also looks like a good book to promote for book groups which help boost sales. Word of mouth still carries some books to become best sellers.

[oneminutemonkey.livejournal.com]

There's not a damn thing wrong with it.
Back when I worked in a bookstore, I'd quite gleefully practice face-out management on authors or books I thought needed the attention. Heck, I still do it when no one is looking. Better you see the cover of a new and interesting book than yet another freaking Hitchhiker's Guide or Lord of the Rings.

Don't let the idjits get to you. You're just conducting a little promotion of your books. Heck, you could probably offer to sign a few copies as long as you were there, and the store might slap some "Autographed" stickers on them and move them that way. (I had Orson Scott Card wander into my store one night and sign books, and he only mentioned it afterwards.... :> )

I wouldn't worry about it. If the store doesn't like having a book face-out, some compulsive-obsessive employee will come along and fix it later. :>

[netcrimes.livejournal.com]

I *always* move my book to the "just out" section if I see it in a bookstore, or turn it so that it's face out. You're not bad.

[ktempest.livejournal.com]

Dude, don't let that guy get to you. he's full of crap. I do this kind of thing all the time. make it a point to go into the SF section of a bookstore I happen to be in, look for books by my friends, and turn then cover out. Many times I don't even have to diturb the orientation fo othr books in the process. many tims they have enough of that book in a row for me to turn the cover out and still take up the same width. If I do have to turn a couple of Terry Goodkind or Neil Gaiman or Robert Jordan spine out to get the job done, I really, really don't think they care. The book store workers might care, but I doubt it. Corporate tells them how to arrange the shelves. And is probably paid extra by someone to do it a certain way. So I have no qualms about helping out an author who may not have the full force of the corporate machine behind them.

It's not wrong or immoral. Sheesh.

(in fact, I'm going into the bookstore across from where I am and turning your books cover out right now!!!)

[ifreet.livejournal.com]

Facing out your books is neither immoral nor unethical. Depending on the spacing and shelving issues in a section it might be inconsiderate, but it doesn't sound particularly bad in the situation you've described. However, I would much rather that an author tell one of us she's in the store and offer to sign what we have in stock, because that would guarantee a face out that we wouldn't grumble about and immediately re-spine. We like authors. (And sometimes we get signed copies from the warehouse, so I don't understand the unable-to-return argument!)

Thanks to this debate, though, I have a good excuse ready for the next time I get yelled at by a manager for having a face-out when I "don't have enough copies to face out." I am completely blaming the author: No, I swear, she must have been here!

I have to say, though, I was surprised at how many people weren't sure if we had a related book when the Hitchhiker's Guide movie came out. Or even if there were one for Lord of the Rings, which nearly made me cry. Even famous works require some degree of marketing... /devils advocate

[anghara.livejournal.com]

Hm - I wonder if we could get a definitive on the "signed books nonreturnable" issue, so that at least THAT one is cleared up on both sides of the pitch. I wouldn't have thought, myself, that it mattered all THAT much - it's a scribbled name on the flyleaf, it's hardly a book which has been defaced with writing inside and out... but then again, I don't particularly WANT them returned to the warehouse [grin] so I'm pretty ambivalent on it.

As for

I have to say, though, I was surprised at how many people weren't sure if we had a related book when the Hitchhiker's Guide movie came out. Or even if there were one for Lord of the Rings, which nearly made me cry. Even famous works require some degree of marketing

...do you suppose that each generation needs to be re-educated?...

[keris45.livejournal.com]

Yep, been there done that. Name me an author who hasn't...
And as I am often shelved near Mercedes Lackey, Feist or Stephen King, they are often the authors who suffer from my heinous crime. [My apologies to all three of you.]

When I am as famous as they are, I promise I won't say a word if you - the next up and coming author - put my books spine out. At the moment I'm just an unknown whose publisher had no budget at all for marketing her three debut books on the US scene.

Glenda Larke

[green-knight.livejournal.com]

I don't think it'll make a difference to the estate of Douglas Adams what you did.

Bookturning is a legitimate occupation in my mind, particularly if it's an occasional occurrence. Moving books, hiding them, etc are in a different league - but turning some in and the ones next to them out, well, that's what readers do as well, it happens.

There are times when I regret a lot that I'm not on rasfc at the moment, because I would have had a scathing word or two to say.